After reflections after our first interview day. Me: jeg ved ikke hvordan vi skal forholde os til Thomas eller bare springe den over og lige sige vi

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1 After reflections after our first interview day. Me: jeg ved ikke hvordan vi skal forholde os til Thomas eller bare springe den over og lige sige vi tager et nyt, men det har helt klart stort værdi. Det han sagde. MH: Det har det faktisk. Men jeg må sige at jeg er enorm forbavset hvor vel styret og planlagt de er. Og det tænker jeg, det er den svar vi giver dem tilbage, hvor vel organiseret de er, i forhold til det transfer siger. Selvfølgelig er der stadig nogen ting de skal arbejde med. Me: Men de har også fået kursus i det. Og det er også noget at tage med i vores overvejelser. Nu har de lært om åbenbart training. De har lært om det at sende folk på kursus og at der er noget før, under og efter. De er ikke blevet sagt direkte men måske kunne det være interessant at gå ind og kigge på det. Marianne har sent med hensyn til de her undervisningsmaterieller og så finde ud af hvad er det lige præcis vi har lært i forbindelse med de her folk på kursus. MH: Det kunne godt være en idé at jeg transskriberer den samtale jeg havde med hende, medmindre vi vil gerne gå ind og tage en ny interview med hende. Me: Det kunne godt være vi skulle det. Men det der også er på spil her, det er et system der er hierarkiske. Det er faktisk kun os der fik brugt ordet i samtalen. Jeg ved ikke om du lagde mærke til det. Men det de er meget optage af, det er de her bonuser, de her anseelser, de her social status og materiale goder, osv, fordi det er deres definitioner af status. Det er alt der siger at man klarer sig godt og det at klarer sig godt det er titel, det er penge. Så når man går ind tænker jeg, og giver så nogen kurser, så er det værdier der er på spil. Det er ren kultur organisation. Så har vi noget værdi clash her. Og det er helt tydeligt hele vejen igennem. Og jeg hører hun siger at hun ønsker at det her, ja, men jeg ved ikke hvor jeg skal starte i det her, jeg har simpelhen ikke sovet, men sån igen i bakspejlet. Jeg ser en udfordring i at arbejde med det her model. Fordi de er ekstremt velorganiseret som du siger. Det kører. Der er noget før, der er noget under og der er noget efter. Så jeg ved ikke hvor meget vi kan gå ind og sige på det, andet end at vi kan gå ind og analysere på det og sige, det er godt nok flot at I gør det her. Men kulturmæssigt ser jeg en masse spændende i det i forhold til at gå ind og analysere. Også ting der er lidt atypisk, fordi man har implementeret det her soft skills. Det kalde de det ikke, det kaldt det bare Danish course. Det her hvordan man trainer folk på kursus, management, osv. Hun nævnte det her, training coordinator. For dem har det ikke bare været det her soft skills. Så der ligger det i det og så den her kultur. Men det kan være jeg ser det. Og som akademiker, det man skal være opmærksomme på, det kan være jeg ser det fordi det er også det jeg ved lidt om i forvejen, det er den forhåndsforståelse jeg går ind i det her projekt med. Jeg går ind og ser det, du ved, hermeneutiks øjne. Jeg finder det jeg gerne vil finde fordi jeg ved noget om det. Så jeg ved ikke hvad jeg skal lede efter, når jeg ikke kender til det. Så jeg er spændt på hvad du, som har arbejdet med transfer, har at fortælle om det, fordi jeg ser al det her med kultur i det og jeg ser noget særdeles spændende. Fordi ud ad til, ser det ud til bare at fungere skid godt, men der er virkelig nogen problemer som jeg kan høre, hvor det slet ikke hænger sammen. For det først, hvem de har sendt af sted, hvordan de er blevet sendt afsted, at det har været i afbrudte moduler, at der er egentlig kun en der har deltaget i alle moduler. Den grafisk placering, manglende opfyldning og kontakt med selve undervisningen med UCL folkene. Det nævnte hun her til sidst. Det at de har arbejdet med det her før. Har UCL haft kendskab til den her specifikke virksomhed og hvordan de har arbejdet med før. Nej, det tror jeg ikke de har. Jeg

2 ser en masse i det. Der var også et par af disse ting Thomas sagde der slog mig. Det her med at der er kun 10% der kan kommunikere på engelsk. MH: Det tænker, jeg er en af de stor fordi det har noget med hvordan opkvalificere man dem. Og man vil helst gå på dansk kurser, fordi som Thomas sagde, de andre kurser var ikke god nok og de gave ikke noget og det er derfor de stoppede at gå til dem. De sendte en hel masse fordi de fik bonus, så stoppede de det. Me: Det er også et spørgsmål om hvordan man kan få det til at have værdi, det der blive lært hvis det er et land, et system hvor det i sig selv har værdi. Hvor det er nogle andre ting der har værdi, såsom penge, og status og titler. Hvordan får det her til at have værdi? Og hvordan får man motiveret sine medarbejdere til at synes det her det er bare vigtigt for mig hvis chefen, Thomas, gerne vil have at det er de her kurser Og de kan ikke måle på det. De kan ikke måle værdien og det er en kæmpe problem. For de kan ikke udbyttet og det er fordi tror jeg, og nu skal vi ikke ind og tolke på det, fordi vi har ikke arbejdet med det endnu, men det er klart når det er penge og status der er på spil for folk, så er det også det der motivere og stræbe efter, medmindre man ser noget personligt værdi i det. Og det har de virkelig svært ved. Og her er det vi kan gå ind og kig lidt kulturmæssigt, hvordan det der soft skills kan få værdi. Det er svært fordi man kan ikke måle på det. MH: I forhold til alt det der med penge, osv. som har stor betydning for dem, det er det samme der skete der jeg arbejdede med Semco og interviewede dem i Singapore. Det er lige nøjagtig det samme. Det der med titlen, status, og ham der manager sagde at det er hel vild hvor meget de går op i det. Det fylder meget og de havde konkurrence mellem hinanden, de arbejder hårdt og den ene vil i værtfald ikke mister noget hvis en anden afdeling er blevet tildelt nogle goder som de ikke har fået. (Man kan gå ind og snakke lidt omkring hvordan levevis er en motivation/eller mangle på motivation factor i menneskers liv. Er det velstand man søger efter i menneskers tilværelse? Kan vi bruge Maslows teori i det her? Kan det bruges med de Vietnamesiske folk. Hvor befinder de på behovspyramiden? Eller ligger deres behov i nogle hel andre rækkefølger?) Me: Ja, lige så snart man kommer ud af Denmark eller norden så ser man at alt efter vægt..? desto mere betyder det. Og det er ikke fremad at stræbe efter penge, det gør man også i andre sectorer, ikke lige ind for vores fag, men i jura, revisor branchen, osv. der er der også status på spil. Desto større hus, desto større bil, desto Det er heller ikke fremmed for os, vel? På

3 den måde, uuhhh!...det skal vi passe på med også. Og så sige, det er ikke fremmed, men der er bare vigtigt her hvad det er der er på spil i forhold til den læring de gerne skulle tilegne sig. Hvis du udelukke sidder, hvis den enkelte medarbejdere sidder og tænker, hvordan kan det her.. det her tager min tid, jeg skulle gerne give lidt mere det bliver hele tiden snakket effectivitet og de her skemaer her, de bliver bedømt efter hvor meget der bliver produceret, og så noget. Hold da hel op, hvilket pres der ligger på medarbejdere her, og hvis de skal sidde.. det duer ikke, vel? Det er noget der egentlig ikke kan finde plads i systemet. Derfor har man kun sendt en person afsted som har fuldførte alle 5 moduler. MH: Men man skal også gå ind og tænke på at, jeg mener Thomas også sagde noget, altså deres kultur er hel anderledes. De er meget afslappet. Jeg kan ikke huske om det var Thomas eller Ms Ha der fortalte at de er meget mere afslappet. Her er de meget mere struktureret, og der bliver stillet noget krav Me: Tid. MH: Ja, og man får betaling for den krav. Og det er også det Thomas siger det virker som en gulerod. Me: Det er også meget interessant. Det er meget behavioristisk. Nu siger jeg det her som læreren der sidder her. Læringsdidaktisk, så er det en behavioristisk tilgang til læring. Behaviorisme det er sån en der hedder Pavlov, jeg ved ikke om du kender ham, der stod for det med piske eller gulerod.. MH: Ja, ja.. Me: principet. Hunden foder fordi den ser det her ikke, og det er nok nødvendigt og særdeles effektivt i sån en virksomhed i Vietnam. Men når man så skal kombinere en behavioristisk læringssyn med læren i noget vi er over i soft skills, som ligger over i noget helt andet, nu ved jeg som sagt ikke helt præcis hvad det er. Jeg har brug for at vide hvad det er lige præcis de er blevet undervist i, det må jeg indrømme. Det føler jeg mig ikke godt nok informeret i det. Men i hver fald, der er en clash læringsmæssigt. Det kunne være interessant at arbejde med det. Nu kan jeg høre vi bevæger os væk fra transfer. Det kan jeg godt høre, men igen jeg finder det jeg er giret til, ikke. Me: Hvad tænker du om transfer? MH: Jeg tænker, at i forhold til modellen, de har fuldført det rigtig godt. Og så er det spørgsmål om det har noget med vi har arbejdet med det i 8. semester, Jesper og jeg, hvor vi gik ind og kiggede på deres generic model, og vi kom med det som løsning. At det var den der transfer. Me: Det er vildt hvis det er det. Det er vildt på mange planner. Det lyder som om Vietnam har taget løsning til sig som I har lavet. Fuldstændig meget imponerende. To, hvis det er rigtig det her hvorfor det ligesom MH: Jeg tænker, i forhold til UCL, fordi vi havde skrevet og sagt at det er enorm vigtigt at den transfer modellen fungere og jeg ved ikke om de har. Men de har i hvert fald læst vores opgave. Vi har været ind og kritisere rigtig meget i forhold til deres evalueringssystem. Hvordan det var meget, meget løst, osv. Osv. Også fik snakket om det her, som vi havde designet en læringsdesign hvor vi har snakket om det der med al de der faser før, under og

4 efter og om den intentionalitetsdialog, osv. Så det kan godt være de har taget dem og brugt dem. Me: Men så ser jeg en opgave der kommer som kommer til at handle om i analysen at det viser sig at de gør de her ting, osv. Men der kulturmæssigt er noget på spil her. Og havde i ikke helt fat i dig og Jesper. Ikke den grad som jeg snakker om. Er det ikke interessant så og så sige at der er i forhold til det her som egentlig fungere, jeg ved ikke om det fungere godt, men det finder vi ud af. Men det ser ud til, sån lige når vi sidder og reflektere, det ser i hver fald ud til at der er nogen overvejelse omkring før, under og efter faser i spil her. Men hvis man så ligger kultur oven på så er der noget der slet ikke så er der noget er det bare mig så er der noget der ikke fungerer. MH: Hvad tænker du lige præcis du ser der ikke fungerer, I forhold til den måde du tænker på i forhold til kultur? Me: Ja, det er altså lige nu fordi vi har fået så mange informationer, så er jeg lidt i tvivl hvem der har lært hvad. Det er så mit problem, kan man sige. Men det lyder lidt som om, det er kun den her training coordinator, der er fuldførte alle fem moduler. (Hvad ligger vi i de her fem moduler? Er det fordi de indeholder alt de har brug for i virksomheden? Hvad vil vi med disse fem moduler? Er der nogen betydning at de skal have taget alle 5 moduler? Hvad baserer vi vores undersøgelser på ) Hvis Ha har taget 3 af de 5 ikke, derudover har 4 i hver fald under 5 har deltog i modellene hist og pist i forbindelse med det her, men de havde sån noget i virksomheden inden der også gik på det med soft skills. Så det er ikke kun UCL der ligesom kan tage ære for det her. Men taler man med training coordinatoren, så lyder det lidt som om at soft skills kun har været samarbejder, osv. det har også været noget med hvordan man fx sender folk på kursus, osv, osv. Så hvad der er blevet forbedret før eller efter, det er jeg ikke sikker på, men hvis man har med behavioristisk læringssyn at gøre, hvor der er gulerod og piske belønning og fyr han sagde direkte jeg var så dum ikke at lade hende snakke videre, men hun sagde der direkte at det var svært at fyre, hvis de så ikke viste sig de ikke får bedre kommunikations skills, det er svært at fyre dem fordi man kan ikke måle, ergo.. Det er så barsk et system, det der. Jeg tror virkelig det er overlevelse, hvor de bare kan få folk det er bare performance, performance, effektivitet, der skal mest muligt ud af den enkelt til en hver tid. Og du skal bare være fleksible, eller kan du ikke arbejde her. Sån tror jeg det er. Jeg tror det der, det er virkelig hårdt. Men hvis man så sætter det ovenpå at man gerne vil have folk til at reflectere, man vil gerne have folk til at samarbejde, man vil gerne have folk til at vidensdele, hun siger det direkte det her, du kan ikke få folk til at videndele hvis man er i et hierarki. Hun sagde det her til sidst. Hun sagde pga den hierarkisk orden er det svært at videndele og være på kursus i det hele taget, for der sidder den måde de har sendt de her folk på kursus, det er åbenbart for vidt forskellige virksomheder, med vidt forskellige titler. En sidder der og keder sig, den anden sidder der og tænker, åh, ha, jeg kunne havde lavet 5 billeder medens Det duer ikke. Man kan ikke, fordi der ikke noget målbart, skal ind i noget meget struktureret i et behavioristisk system, så bliver man nødt til simpelthen sæt noget hel konkrete for effektivisering ej! Nu giver jeg løsning kunne det være for effektivitets udbytte her. Hvad er de præcise forventninger til det her kursus i forhold til hvad vi som virksomhed vil ud af det. For ellers, så bliver det sån et mere et problem end egentlig noget er og det siger jeg ikke det er det. Det må vi lige prøve at spørge Thomas om.

5 MH: Men der er ikke nogen tvivl om at de oplever at der er nogle frustrationer i forhold til at ligesom arbejde sammen. I forhold til det der videndeling. Hvad var det jeg skulle lige til at sige? Det har lige Me: Det er også når jeg spørge til hvad der er svært så tog hun det med det sammen som en kritik. Åh, jeg synes det er svært med transfer. Det var svært at få dem til at sige, før gør vi det, under gør vi det, efter gør vi det. Vi bliver nødt til at støbe det sammen. Thomas forvekslede de der faser der, der vi spurgte til før, så blev det faktisk til under. Fordi vi spurgte, hvad er jeres planlægning, ja men under har de lektie for, siger han så. Under modulet har de lektie for som så Ms Ha Thomas det var ikke det vi mente men MH: Det er svært at gå tilbage og lave den her interview med Thomas igen. Man har ligesom taget pusten ud af luften. Men man bliver nødt til på en eller anden måde. Me: Kunne vi ikke gør det kort? Og så siger i opgaven, simpelthen for ham til at lave det som en slags resume, selvfølgelig med transskribering og i interview form, men lave det som en slags resume mere end en eller anden samtale som har ligget forud. Altså sån så det er kun det vi vægter. Efter frokost Me: Der er en rød tråd. Der er noget der sker før, under og efter. Det er jeg sikker på, det kan vi godt finde ud af. Og hvis man prøver at analysere på det, ud fra Nikolajs model, så måske vi når frem til at, ja, men det er meget vellykket den her proces, det her læringsforløb, men anvende man et lidt mere læringsorienteret tilgang til det, jf. det Anja har arbejdet med, og spørger, er der tale om et decideret videns transformation, så tror jeg straks at vi støder ind i nogen problemer. Så er der nogle spørgsmål der vender sig, fordi det har med, hvordan den her viden transformere sig og hvordan er det nået ud, osv., osv. For som sagt intentionerne kan have de rigtig principper MH: Men sagde også, det der med de bløde værdier, det er ikke de første de har arbejdet med. Fordi der er alle de andre ting der presser på det teknisk og produktion og tjene penge først. Så alle de her bløde værdier. Var det ikke der hvor jeg spurgte hvor meget 10% Me: Ja og 90% i de technical. Det er derfor jeg spurgte, fordi jeg undrede mig og prøvede at få sat % på. Hvor meget fylder det her. Og det er kun en lille bitte del. Det er nok for dem en nødvendighed for at kunne have et arbejdsplads med kunder i vesten. MH: Måske. Det måske vigtigt at grave lidt mere ned med de andre i morgen hvorfor det ikke er vigtig for dem med de bløde værdier. Hvad er det der gør at det er den anden der fylder mere. Men det kan vi siger os selv at det er produktion, egos. Det er penge. Me: Jeg tror det er en virksomhed med meget høj krav til deres medarbejdere. Men jeg tror, hver for sig, at kravene er tydelige. Alt er tydeligt. Fordi der er brug for det er tydeligt og når man lige pludselig bevæger sig over til noget der bliver lidt mudret og udtydelig, så er det nemt at fravælge, nedprioritere der. MH: Men jeg tror, det er faktisk en meget bevidst strategisk stil i og med at man skal producere. Det er penge det drejer sig om og også han har været der i 15 år og han har gjort sig rigtig mange tanker, i forhold til hvordan får vi det her folk til at fungere, osv. Hvad er det

6 de godt kan lide, fx de har fortalt de kan godt lide den her flad system, og de synes at danske virksomheder er nogle af de top virksomheder de kan arbejde med Me: Ja, det sagde training coordinator og Ms Ha. Hun sagde hun havde arbejdet for en japansk virksomhed. MH: Så de er virkelig glad for because you care og så har man har gået ind og tænkt, hvad er god til? Han må har haft en rigtig god sense fordi han arbejdet for udviklings område for FN før. Så han har simpelthen arbejdet med hvordan man udvikle medarbejderne. Han har været ind og kigge på hvordan de fungere bedst og har tænkt rigtig godt, hvad er de god til? Hvad vil de? Hvad kan vi give dem som gulerod? Den der bonus orden, den er fint, og det bliver på rekord de får. En del er fastløn og det andet er afhængig af deres arbejdsindsats. Han ved efter han har arbejdet der i så mange år at det er det de er efter. Penge, title give it to them and then get them to work! Why not! Vi burger de resourcer de har til vores fordel, og det bliver en win, win situation. Alle får noget ud af det. Me: Det er også interessant med fuldførelse af karakter eller en eller anden udtalelse automatisk lige med forfremmelse. Hørte du det? They will get promoted. The more they get promotion, the higher the salary. MH: Og det er det der fylder deres hoved, fuldstændigt. Me: Og det bekræfter det training coordinator sagde i forhold til ms Ha at det der var svært på de her kurser at det var bosses mixed.. at det gik imod det her system. Den her undervisning fra UCL, den har været alt for.., med hensyn til position og title, så har der været alt for mange mennesker blandet sammen. MH: Men det var de nødt til i begyndelse fordi det var et pilot projekt, så havde man fået lidt fra hver virksomhed, til at komme ind og afprøve det her, egos. Så de var nødt til at tage dem de kunne få ud af de her grafisk virksomheder.

7 After reflections after the 2. day of interviews Me: Han siger at er blevet bedre til at tale til kunder her. Talk to customer. Interaction as a professional customer can. Der er åbenbart de her kunder de har til at gøre ting for dem og de direkte kunder som de bestiller services, billeder, whatever, og dem er han så blevet bedre til at kommunikere med. Jeg synes ikke han kunne gengive konkret eksempler med hvordan han har været ind og arbejde med det. Og vi spurgte tre gang. MH: Men det kan også være fordi han er for ung. Me: Jeg tror mere han kunne husk hvad de havde lært. MH: Men ved du hvorfor han kan? Det er fordi han siger, han har et papir, og han går hele tiden tilbage til det. Al det han har lært, han bliver ved med at gå tilbage til det og læse det. Me: Så at den sidde på ryggrad af ham. Men ham der Mr. Viet der var ind, hvis man bruger så lang tid på noget han synes var særdeles simpel og derfor ineffectivt, så er det ligesom for at få den ned. Og det er dybere lags træning. Det er simpelthen igen det der med læring at gøre. Hvordan man lærer hvordan man ser på læring det er så spændende, det er så relevant. Altså om man ser læring som det der hedder tang?? pas metoder, sån noget kognitiv. Det sidder ligesom på ens backbone her, på ens ryggrad eller om det er noget som du får helt over dig med andre ord i hvilke grad. Altså hvorvidt, det er en ændring ind i dig. Og det her kan føre til en snak om det der måske bliver talt om noget transformativt. Om det er egentlig et behov, og så konkludere, nej! Det er ikke umiddelbart lige for ham. MH: Det er virksomhedsbehov. Tænker du ikke det? Jeg tænker at det er meget et virksomhedsbehov. Me: Jeg snakker ikke om ham, jeg snakker om Esoftflow investering i forhold til om de har et behov for at de her.. MH: Men jeg er som jeg ser det.. Me: Ja, men det kan vi analysere os frem til det. MH: Jeg ser det som om det er et rigtigt stort behov fordi nettop som han.. Me: At de ændre sig, de her folk. Hvorfor så indføre bonus system der giver dem mindre tid og højre løn, og belønninger og, osv hvis der var et stort behov for at de reflekterer og videndele og præsentere? Der er jo engang været tid til det. MH: Nej, men jeg tror det er meget forskelligt hvem det er og hvilken afdeling det er, om man ser det som et behov. Han kan se at det er et behov fordi, som hun sagde Ha og coordinatoren i går, hun sagde noget med, jeg kan ikke huske hvilken af dem der snakkede om det, nogle er meget sulten efter det, vil meget gerne lære og er enorm sulten efter det. Så hvis du finder nogen der virkelig gerne vil lære mere - og ham den første vi interviewede i dag, han sagde, at det rykker noget, at han bruger det i hans kommunikation. Det gør ham her også, han siger, jeg kan se det i min kommunikation. Det er bedre når jeg er med mine medarbejdere, hvori ham den anden i den teknisk afdeling, han kan ikke se at det giver ham det samme. Me: Nej, det skal vi have frem i analysen. Det der du siger. Det er rigtigt, det er rigtigt.

8 1 Interview with Ms HR Once again, thank you very much Can you describe to begin with can you describe the company to us and your work? Ha: Okay, so Esoftflow is a Danish company working with image processing. We provide a service for our clients all over the world, mostly in Europe, America and Australia with photo editing 3 D floor plan and film flasher [?] Most of our clients have they are estate agency and they send us their image with some acquirements and we just follow the assignment to like edit the picture or the film and send back to them so picture of the film can be processed on their website, so they can sell their house and land and other things. That s about the company and now we have up to 500 staff and we re located in Vietnam as part of the Esoftsystem group, Esoftflow and HR and administration office and my main task is to ensure the labor force for the company including recruit people and training people and the staff related to the CNB and it s about administration too so my job is to ensure that the office operates normally and on the service provided to the staff like a high level so we provide a meal, we provide a packing service health check other things. Yes, that s about my job yes. (good background of the company and her role in the company in our consideration as to whether we need Thomas or not) M How is it to work for a Danish company in your country? Ha: I think it s quite a nice experience. In the past I used to work for other foreign companies. I used to work for a Japanese company, that is Toyota Vietnam, the car maker, and then I worked for a US company, that is a consultancy firm, on media relations, public relations, and yeah, they have part of law consultancies too, and then I worked for a French company that provide catering and cleaning service, but when I come and work for Esoftflow I can see a totally difference. It s not like in a Japanese company where everything is planned and you have to follow exactly the plan and the hierarchy so you have to follow the level before you come into a higher level. You cannot just jump from the bottom to the top, it s not allowed. And in French companies it s somehow the same that they have all the precision you have to follow and things are quite easy, you cannot come up with new ideas and do things but just follow what is planned and in the US company it s totally different. They just care about the result and do not care about how you work with that. So the precision is not [?] somehow. But when I work with Esoftflow I can see that yeah it s quite a professional, here re people use a lot of like modern equipment... and people work quite professional on time and other things but somehow it s quite flexible and it quite open up organization, so we do not have a real structured hierarchy but we work like a team and try to like reach the common goal and all the idea are welcome. So to me it seems to be a really fantastic and protective work environment. I am happy that I m working here and somehow I think the Danish people like the Vietnamese that we care a lot about people and about the relationships among people. So that s something I really like about it and I actually like to work with Thomas, I can learn a lot from him and he really let me to be myself, to come up with the idea and to think in a way that I think will be good for the company and for people so ya that s it. (Culture super - ) M We would like to be able to talk to you about the training, you know with UC Lillebælt, how you worked with them and what we would like to do is kind of go in and look at the processes, how you prepare before, under and after etc. And we can hear from Thomas you re

9 2 the expert in it. You are the one who is in charge of all those things. We just wanted to ask to start with: What has the purpose been for sending your staff on training? (intention for sending on courses what were their needs) Ha: I think the purpose is that we tried to increase our staff with the knowledge and the skill they need for their job. Here in Esoftflow we focus in three different things: that is English, soft skills and task skill, task skill here mean the technical skill that is required by the job. Normally in Vietnamese labour market people the labour their English skill is not good. But here in Esoftflow we have all the clients, the foreigners, and all the other have the requirements in English, so we need our staff to have a good enough English, to understand the requirements, and to work with clients, beside that we have some expertise so ya for people to well coordinate with one another they need to have a certain level of English, and about the soft skills so most of the people working with Esoftflow they are the ones working with the technical things and in Vietnam the educational system is not good at training people with soft skills. So ya people they may be really good in their field but they don t know how to work in teams and how to communicate effectively with other people to let the ya like the to work with them so that s why right when people try the firm we provide some soft skill training, we just focus in many things, that is carrier planning, and the communication, the team work and the customer service yeah, to make sure that they have the basic soft skills for their job at Esoftflow and the most important thing is that technical training. So normally people they know how to use the software before they join the firm, but our production here is quite like a specific it s not like other company, and for eeeh different clients, those clients, the requirements are different and we will receive the uploads from the clients very often, so that s why we need to train our staff so they understand the differences and ya, what the client they like and they want and that s the reason why we need to train our staff and somehow we provide other soft skill training to the management people too, because eehm, most of our team leader they start as an editor, so they just good like at editing the picture and doing the theme, but they don t know how to advice other people, how to lead the team something like that. And ya, we provide some training that s it. That the purpose. M May I ask, how did you come about the thought of eeehm working with soft skills? Ha: Yeah, I just joined Softflow three years ago, and they started with soft skill training, I think some years before that. So the idea is that when people have to cooperate coordinate, have to work with one other, to deal with the issues, the issues of quality, or the issues with the clients, then something eehm I think the problem is that people haven t worked together or understand or communicate very well with one other so they misunderstand each other, the issues haven t been resolved because the way people think and the way we talk are different so that why they come up with the idea that the people need to be equipped with the basic soft skills. (this is really good intention company needs evaluation) M Ehm, you said that, when you started three years ago, you went to the soft skill course or training, who gave it to you? Ha: Actually, not me, actually mostly people in the production staff. M Hmhm okay

10 3 Ha: Production staff Many of them just graduated from the high school. So they just learn the software by themselves, for example here people just need to master on the Photo Shop software and they can try and be a staff. Quite simple. Here we recruit a lot of people with disability and those people even not may go to school, they just learn to write to read at some center and then stay at home and ya and they are trained in the software in some shortterm class or they just learn by themselves. So they really lack of the skills to communicate with other people, they go directly from home to the workplace and even don t know how to like yeah talk to other people and how to work with them. Thay s why it is really a neat to equip them with those skills. For the non-production staff, I mean the back office staff, so most of them graduated from the university and somehow they like to join in the social activity and to join in the team work when they are at the university. So we did provide some soft skill training for them but not a lot. We are seeing that they should have enough soft skills when they come to work so when I first joined the company nobody provided me with soft skill training, no. (Fantastic bagground on need of softskills learning on their own) M So if I get it right, and we go back, when did the soft skills program start? Did it start with UC Lillebælt or had you already started with some kind of local[s] in Vietnam? Ha: Yes, we started many years ago with some local training firm and we did ourselves too so for the first time we had the education on our own. The good performer receives 60 US $ per man (the bonus system)to accumulate in one account and they can use that amount of money to go for training. But some training is provided (decided?) by company, some other thing just selected by the staff them self, and they just need to receive the approval from the direct manager to join those trainings. The challenge is to evaluate whether or not those trainings are relevant, that they re related to their job and may be good for their job, and we have a training coordinator who also check whether or not the training is good enough and ehm which trainer should be good for our staff and (?) which training firm so that s how we work with it. But obligated soft skill training we apply for our production staff, ya something that implements for all the production staff. So when they first join the company, and they have to try the soft skill training in one or two days and together with the technical training in two months and after that that then we ve already decided the level contract with them so within one year or six months we ll have repeated with their training and this time we try (/invite) the training staff from outside to come in and have a one or two days training for them but after some year we see that (?) training is not really high, because we have to pay a lot for people to come, but then the trainer complain that people they didn t come again, they stop the training, and when we ask the trainees, they say that it is somehow funny yeah maybe good; but we don t see that we can implement those things it s quite theoretical it s not something about our daily work, it s not something about our colleague so it s really hard for us so after that we consider and we sit down together and we designed some soft skill training by our self, so our staff I mean the team leader or manager (?) to be the trainer. We tried to - instead of leaving them the theory - we give them some activity and some games and something like that so that they can join just join activities enough and come back with conclusion about what is related to their job ehm the team work, the communication, and ehm that s how we implement the soft skill training now.??? (18:13) There are several training. The first join the company, and the second one is the repeated one after six month or one year when they join the company ya. (How they worked with training after they started with UCL they try to design their own training courses they are still struggling with it do not know how to work with it effectively. Perhaps that s where we can come in with some insight as to how they could work further with it or perhaps that s where we could go in and investigate more about it the follow-up interviews)

11 4 M Okay, what is UC Lillebælt s role in that? This courses that has been provided from Denmark, how do they fit in all this? Ha: Yes, the training provided by the Danish pilot project I think the target is to like provide or equip the team leaders, the trainers and the HR people like us like the understanding about how the training can be effective, the way to evaluate training effectively, and other things that may affect the training process, like the psychology, something like that, so it s something new to us, in the past we just do it based on the need we analyze the need and we hire the way most suit our staff and our condition so that s it, but we do not have that much theory things to think about like what is the right way and the new way people doing things over there in Denmark ehm it s quite interesting and we yeah like the practice we bring the theory into our work and see okay whether we can apply this or like that for example the impact learning something like that impact learning theory we think it s quite interesting, we focus more on the preparation, and the following up after it all, not just focus in the time that the training is happing and we can prepare some clip so that and sending it to the staff so they can work on it on their own before coming to the class ehm during the class time we can discuss about that so people can understand more it quite good. 20:44 M This leaf or what was it you said you send to your workers before start ehm is that what you said?! Who makes it? Ha: Actually for the soft skill we have an office(?) for the for the technical training we ve already implement that so our CBO we call them CBO it s capacity building officer so in other words they work with the trainers Those people they may get a clip to instruct people how to work with the product Yes, the clip I mean the video they like offer tutorial(?) they do it and they shoot it and they send the clip to the staff in advance so they can sit at home and look into that at home and see how the trainers they work with that and in the class they can give the questions and discuss about the way the production can be done and in advance they practice with other products and that s how things are happening in Esoftflow, ya.(this is very interesting. I would have liked to have.. M I m just gonna go back in the beginning again: How do you choose who goes on a course? You spoke something about to analyze the need Yes, who makes these analysis and how do you decide who gets to go or who takes part in the training? (Where does she mention that?) Ha: Here we have the training coordinator. She decides M Oh the sound disappeared Sorry; the sound went away. We can t hear you! Ha: The training coordinator can you hear me now? M I don t know [what to do] Should we restart? Yes, let s do that. We will call you in a minute. Ha: Okay, can you hear me now? M Yes, better, sorry.

12 5 Ha: So the training coordinator is the one who do the analysing. She works with the team leaders of the managers to find out the needs of the staff and besides that we also do kind of a survey, free training survey to the participants and see what they need and then the the the the training coordinator receives that with the trainer or the CBO, capacity building officer, to work out a training plan, and we work with the team leader again to see whether or not the training plan is good and they continue to prepare the material yeah, and and that s it. M Are these training plans individual or is it one training plan for a certain group? Ha: Yes, normally it s from [a] certain group. Ya, we rarely implement training for one or two people normally it should be a group. For the technical training we normally implement the training for a least 5 people to maximum 15 people (?) And from the soft skill it is up to people per class ehm for the English it depends on what skills we want to train and how many people needs to be trained so for this the training coordinator, the trainer and the team leader will work together to see who should try the training, yeah (training after their own training this could also be blue colour working with their skills) M Okay, ehm when you when they have to prepare what do they do they sit together with somebody and talk to the person who they think needs to go on a course or what happens? How is this person or these people informed about their participation in these courses? (just my own notes: have to remember that we are going in to see how the employees are being competence developed we have to have this in mind how does esoftflow competence develop their employees? What is the purpose of transfer of learning to competence develop their employees.) (With regards to the behaviouristic way of creating motivation with a carrot at the end of the line we can talk as Merete mentioned about the way it clashes with the Danish way of thinking that motivation has to come from within and not from an external motivation that is where we go in and talk about the cultural values the difference btw the Danish and vietnamese way of thinking driven by the materialism. The Danish have the materialism they don t need to acquire and fight for it the Vietnamese are still on another level. They are still struggling to achieve what the Danish already have and take for granted. The standard of living. Give e.g. of Semco Martin manager in Singapore explains the differences well could quote from him. This is the context that the Danish companies are working with, in relation to the Asians way of thinking. ) Ha: Yeah, it s quite different for different training. For example, it is the soft skill training is something planned in advance, so when they join the company they know already that they need to start the training so ehm the training coordinator when she works with the team leader and make a list, then she will send the participant the notification that we have the training and you are selected to join so this is the information about the training how the time and the content that will be included in the training. (This is company strategy planned ahead when the employees join the company, they know already that they have to competence develop their soft skills) It is the same for the English training. Sometimes the need may come up for the team leader after the annual review or monthly review if we think that the staff need to improve his English or his soft skill or even his technical skill then he will talk to the staff that your skills need to be improved and I will send you to the training, so

13 6 I will make the request with the company, and when the request is accepted they come back say, yes now it is accepted and you will join this training. (So the monthly or annual review analyses the competence development needs of the employees done by the team leaders where is Thomas role in this? is this the same monthly review that Thomas was talking about and which goes on About the technical training we have some other kind of regulations to that we wrote a road map for the staff. Normally when they first join the company we just train in one product and after 6 month they need to know 3 products for example and after one year they need to know 6 products something like that but people will know in advance they need to be trained more technical skills so they can work with more products, then after 6 months review we measure the productivity and other KPI and with.. those are the people who gets the best productivity or low productivity to improve their productivity then they need to send to the training and need the right time to send the people to training right now for example is not the high season. If it s the high season then even just work with one product there can work with one product is a lot, a lot of products for them to do the work load is really high so there productivity is still high then so it s not the right time to send them to the training year. So the need may come some different way. And even the staff come up to the team leader and say I want to study more I want to get more skill I think my English should be improved I think I need more soft skills training something like that, so the team leader will talk to them and make the decision whether or not they should request the training for the staff, yeah. (fantastic explanation of their needs analysis for competence development the employee s information, preparation of the companies needs and requirements for adult learning further training their awareness of the training needs. Question is what lies behind their understanding of the training needs? What is their motivation? Do they have the right motiviation? Is there something that is called the right motivation? look into my organisations psychology book about it.) M May I ask if it is possible for you to answer this: How often does that happen that an employee goes to the training coordinator and says: I am interested in or I would like to take part in extra training? Ha: I don t think it s really often. For the faculty staff it is quite often, especially in the past where we had the education bonus. Because the staff they know the bonus they they so they normally come up with the request that I need I want to study this, I want to use my education bonus to take this course for example, But for production staff then not really not really proactive in asking for training except for the technical training because when they can a good technical training it means they have a more chance to earn the money here. Because the bonus system is based on the productivity based on how many products they can produce. So they see the need to get more skills. (bonus system behaviourism) M And how many people are employed in the production? Ha: How many people? M Yeah are employed in production? Ha: Okay, about 90% of our working staff, so it is about more than 400 people. M Okay, more than 400. Yes, we have heard that there re are a little bit more than 500 employees in total. Thomas told us that.

14 7 Ha: But it includes some so called trainees. So before becoming official staff of the company they have to go through the technical training and some soft skill training, that may take some two weeks to equip and during this time they become a letter of employment is not signed yet 30:43 what we call the training agreement. So during that time they just go to the company and be trained and just to receive some financial support of the company for their basic needs. It s not really a salary. (Interesting their employment process) So that s how it happened M Okay, so when that person has to go on training, it is decided now that this person can take part inthe training what happens then? Ehm what kind of influence does the individual, or the employee have on the training? Ha: Actually, ya, normally, the trainee, the people who are under training, they just follow like a training plan and get the training material from the trainers, but we ehm usually we have the feedback-form and sometimes the training coordinator will sit down with the trainee and ask them about how the training is going on and what do they think there should be improved, can they follow the training and normally we have the monthly review, so during this monthly review we have one table of (So training starts right from the beginning when they step into Esoftflow. This essense of adult learning life long learning that there from the beginning, right? And are the employees aware that it is called life long learning? Are they aware that that is what is happening to them that they are receiving life long learning? What do they call it? (a shame we could have gotten the answer from Phuc). KPI, where the trainer will evaluate the trainee, and the trainee and the trainer will sit down with the training coordinator and HR people to talk about the training itself, and whether or not they find it okay, the evaluation from the trainer Do they want to train in something and yeah, we listen to that and see whether or not we can support them.eh yes, it s about their performance but it is also about like the training conditions, and it is about the disciplin too so we decide whether or not the people will be allowed to continue with their training if they ll be kicked out or can they go into production earlier (?) I mean they graduate earlier. Like the regulations yeah something like that 32:50 and at the end of the training we have the feedback-form again, so people can give the feedback of the trainer, the training coordination, the training material, all those things related to the training ehm yes, and that s it. (All about the training how it is performed what are the functions of the training coordinator) (they talk a lot about discipline belongs to the hierarchical system. Even though they have a flat system, they have a lot of their hierarchical system in it.) M Okay, so the evaluation afterwards, is that in written form or in oral form? (evaluation) Ha: It is in written form. But it reveals so we can discuss with one another about the training. (evaluation) M You talked about the fact that you used badges? Did you say you used badges? Sometimes about when you were going on courses, whether they you know, as an award they got badges? Did I understand right? Ha: Ehm the badge? No M No, you didn t talk about badges did you?

15 8 Ha: Badge? I mean the class? Not badge. M Okay, not the badge sorry, I misunderstood you okay. Hmhm M Okay, ehm well, back to the training course when the employees participate you said that they are handed over a plan and the material, ehm is there some kind of conversation in relation to that? Due to or before the course starts? A conversation between you or between the training coordinator and the employee? (intentionsskabendedialog does not happen training coordinator says something else though cross reference) (we could talk about the culture as to pertaining to discipline as well as systems, not conversations like sending out forms which they can fill out and not having a dialog management sits and decides how the training is performed. Ha: No, ehm they are just informed about what we will taught or what will be trained, but there is the(it is the following who do the intentionskabende dialog på vejen of the employees still the hierarchical thinking her) coordinator and the trainer and the team leader and normally we sit together and we discuss whether what should be included in the training material. It s about for us the target of the training, what we want, and the trainer define the training material, and then send it back to the team leader, the HR, and then we give the consensus about it. Whether or not we can keep that or we should change it or we can keep that by the trainers. The trainees do not play any role in preparing the training material, but we have the surveys they need to fill out before the training, so people can give the question, whether people want to be included in the training so it can be taken into consideration when the trainees prepare the training material. But that s it. We do not come back to them and say hey, is this relevant or not? (again the hierarchical way of thinking or management deciding and then the employees agreeing and accepting). M How do you measure the outcome of the training in soft skills? I imagine that must be difficult. I mean you are a company, you would like to profit on this, so how is this outcome measured? Ha: Normally, before people join the training, they will ask the team leader to give their comment and evaluation about the participant. Which skill is needed to be improved, and then after one month of training, we go back to the team leader and ask them if we see a change of those people.whether or not we need to send them to more soft skill training haha but at the end of the training we normally have a test, so ehhh we ask people to write down what they get from the trainings and ehm people need to come up with an idea on how they implement their training into their job. And have the KPI, a measuring system a table of KPIs. (evaluations system the KPI) 37:20 (the KPI is very interesting we should go in and investigate about it what it does to people and what is written about it, in the emotions of exectations) ( People can feel very threatened by performance measures, when they feel the measures are judging them personally. That s the topic of this Harvard ManageMentor video with Stacey Barr. By we have to find out how KPI works)

16 9 M The CPI what is that? Ha: No, the KPI yes, that is an indicator to measure the performance of people. but for the soft skills, we do have a KPI, we do have something like follow the value of the company or something like that but it is really hard somehow to say they have the great valuable use and people sometimes confuse with one another about that. The manager may say: You just had some good attitude for example, but it is not like really outstanding But the staff they say: I think my attitude was really good. Or the team leader says your communication skills should be improved and the staff says but I think my communication skills is good. I can talk to everyone. How do you think it should be improved? Which point. And sometimes we try to come up with a number, which point they can accept the discussion with the colleague or something like that. It is still really hard to develop the soft skills for the staff. (KPI evaluation) M What is the easy part or what do you think has been the easy part in this training for the employees and what do you think are the most difficult things in relation to the training they receive in soft skills? Can you hear me no, I will get really close the microphone and camera? I will repeat the question: In relation to the training in soft skills, in your opinion, what are the difficult things for the employees to learn and what are the easy things? Ha: I think the difficult thing is that people see the need. When they try the soft skill training they can easily get the content (40:05) of the training, but when they try to implement especially after some time that is really hard they forget Because the habit they have built before that. I think the soft skill training, if that is effective that they should change the habits of people. But how to measure it is also the hard part too because, like I mentioned to you, people hardly agree with one another about that and we hardly see them change. It is not easy at all. M Why is it difficult? Ha: It s difficult because the people may have a difficult way to evaluate their soft skills. We do not have clear criteria to evaluate soft skills. I think so. It also hard because like I mentioned people only when the habit is change, then the soft skill training is effective. But to change people s habit is really hard. Because no trainer, no team leader can follow the staff day after day and tell them to like if they implement what they have learned is really hard, except from the case with the trained staff themselves, that they need to change and have the motivation to change M Why is it difficult for the trainers or the team leaders to help them to implement Ha: well, I think the first reason is that we first of all have a lot of staff. One trainer, he or she has a lot of trainings and the team leader too. One team leader, he has too many for 60 to 100 staff and they have many other responsibilities to care and the soft skill is something important but not an urgent thing so normally people just follow the urgent things. Eg. The. skills, the quality things, something like that. They need to focus on that thing they do not have the time to just follow up and ask how they perform in soft skills.